From the story at WYFF in Greenville's website...
Small Church's Obama Sign Causes Big ControversyPastor Byrd, it's an open question as to whether we already have someone "in there" who seriously believes in Jesus Christ today. So why is your church showing such concern now?POSTED: 4:20 pm EDT April 21, 2008
UPDATED: 10:18 pm EDT April 21, 2008JONESVILLE, S.C. -- The sign in front of a small church in a small town is causing a big controversy in Jonesville, S.C.
Pastor Roger Byrd said that he just wanted to get people thinking. So last Thursday, he put a new message on the sign at the Jonesville Church of God.
It reads: "Obama, Osama, hmm, are they brothers?"
Byrd said that the message wasn't meant to be racial or political.
"It's simply to cause people to realize and to see what possibly could happen if we were to get someone in there that does not believe in Jesus Christ," he said.
(snip)
And how is what this pastor and his church showing that they sincerely believe in Christ, anyhow?
I said a few weeks ago that this kind of thing was going to continue leading up to the election. And though I'm not now and never will support Obama or cast a vote for him, I'm not nearly so worried about what he might do if he were to become President as I already am about too many of my fellow Christians who are not only frightfully paranoid - when scripture tells us many times to not be afraid of the things of this world - but also show such selective myopia on the basis of worldly politics. George W. Bush is already the most un-Christlike President in American history... so has the Jonesville Church of God ever condemned him?
Pastor Byrd says that the congregation of Jonesville Church of God unanimously voted to keep the message. Too bad they likely never bothered to pray and study scripture about the issue before deciding to press forward.
EDIT 11:43 pm EST 04/22/2008: I couldn't help it...
Courtesy of Church Sign Generator. Credit for the idea goes to Ed Darrell who suggested it on Kevin Bussey's post about Jonesville Church of God's ridiculous sign.
65 comments:
This is a letter I have sent to The CHURCH of GOD INTERNATIONAL and everyone else that would read it!
Dear Church of God International,
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE contact me and let me know That YOU DO NOT AGREE with YOUR Jonesville Church of God BIGOTRY HATE FILLED SIGN:
(obama/osama hmmmm, are they brothers?)
This is the saddest thing I have ever seen! GROWN ADULTS doing this! I am the son of a Minister! My father brought me and his congregations up to LOVE! There is nothing wrong with Questioning your congregation! But to put that up in public where CHILDREN see this? (I am not concerned about anyone over the age of 15.... even without an education... a 15 year old would see this is just WRONG! President Bush says he is a Christian too! IS HE? Do we know for sure? NO! ONLY GOD KNOWS a mans heart! PLEASE LET ME KNOW that your organization is not condoning this childish act. I grew up in Chattanooga, and have many friends that are a part of your organization and they all are HORRIFIED by this!!!!! If you or anyone in your congregation thinks that PASTOR ROGER BYRD was just "trying to get people to think"... then you are right.... people that see that THINK HATE, NOT LOVE they THINK MEANNESS NOT LOVE, they THINK ANGER, NOT LOVE...... WHAT , seriously, does this sign do for your organization.??? After Speaking with my friends in Cleveland, Tenn... I will pass this along to you... I am 42 years old and most of my friends in Cleveland are Church of God members are around the same age, have families and CONTRIBUTE/ TITHE to YOUR CHURCH!.... I ask you to look at your :
membership ,finances and growth over the next 12 months... I am positive that IF YOU DONT SPEAK UP.... and say that this is NOT THE CHURCH OF GODS stance.... all the hard work you have done for GOD will be tarnished! I will PRAY for your LEADERS, members and families! I will ask God to show Jonesville that LOVE is what their community needs.... NOT HATE or negative, uneducated BLURBS in front of the church! If not for my father teaching me that the Love of GOD is EVERYTHING... I would be lost. I believe in the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, and that Christ walked the earth and will come again. I also am not ashamed to tell people that in any way or form. BUT TO QUESTION whether someone is a christian or not, especially a complete stranger that I am sure most of you have not met, made me SAD... because I see how non-christians look at organized religion. This Jonesville church has HURT YOU, ME and ALL OTHER CHRISTIANS...... are you a christian? HOW WILL I KNOW? by your ACTIONS!!!!! so when people see the actions of "pastor" Byrd.... I truly wonder what kind of 'church' the Jonesville Community thinks GOD has 'blessed' them with! I love you ALL, just dont 'like' Pastor Byrd and his hate filled heart! Since I am the Son of a Minister, I know that someone will read this first (or scan over it)... Please forward this to anyone that Speaks for your WORLDWIDE Organization. Also, I write this for several friends in Cleveland , Tennessee.
Lastly, we need to THANK GOD EVERYDAY for separation of Church and State.... If you remember.... we left a Country over 200 years ago because THAT COUNTRY tried SHOVING a "specific" belief on ALL PEOPLE THERE! Freedom of Religion IS THE BEST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED TO CHRISTIANS ... I mean think about it..... in YOUR own website you say...... "It was 1886, in a crude meeting house on the Tennessee-North Carolina border, where the Church of God traces its roots. There, a group of eight sincere Christians had a deep desire for a closer relationship and life with Christ."
IF not for a very amazing group of people, and I am talking about the earliest of Americans... searching and FIGHTING for separation of Church and State..... YOUR OWN Church of God would have NEVER been EVER!!!! The more I travel and meet people from all over the world, people with all different kinds of beliefs, some which make me giggle, some which make me angry.... I have learned that by RESPECTING THEM ALL is the BEST WAY TO PROTECT my FREEDOM of RELIGION!!!
I dont expect a response, though I would love one. I also will be sending this to every Newspaper I can and will Post this on the net. Like your 'Pastor' Byrd.... I guess we all feel the need to get our point across.... in a way, you can Thank him for WAKING me up! And by the way...... If you really feel the need to get involved in politics..... THEN GET READY TO PAY TAXES!!! (separation of Church and State is sounding better and better dont you think!!)
Sincerely,
Barry Conner
Atlanta, GA
Los Angeles, CA
Does this particular church have a website, email, etc.? I'd dearly love to send them a message. As a Christian myself, the bigotry and foolishness of this sign sadden me greatly. These people bring dishonor to the Name of Christ. Too many will think that their sort of racism, bigotry, intolerance and myopic view of things actually reflect the Mind of Christ.
Bush is the most unChristian President we've had in a Century, yet these people pretend that he's some great Christian leader. The mere speaking of Christ by Bush, doesn't mean he's a follower of Chirst.
It's easy to see how George Bush became President. Just a matter of securing the loopy Christian vote!
I've been to this church and I don't mean to judge anyone but I had a strange feeling when I went there. I am a black male and christian, I felt like an outcast when I attended there. I tried everything I could not to feel that. I did not want to make it racial so I prayed about it. But the overtoned that everyone (well most) had really bothered me. My friend, a white man (not a member, he has friends), also felt it towards me. He kept asking me was I alright, he knew what I was feeling. But as he was introducing me to some of the people all I'd said, "God Bless You". A few days later he told me one of his friends asked him why did he bring me. He told me that he just asked that and did not make any racial remarks, but he knew what he meant. He said he was not sure if he should tell but felt a conviction he didnt. Also told me since then he rarely talks to this guy, only he speaks first.
oh apologize for my typos and bad typo-grammar. I just read what I wrote and it sounds awful. :-)
roger bird, racist turd ...hmmm are they related?
Give 'ol Roger Byrd a call!!
Jonesville Church of God
621 Forest Street
Jonesville, SC 29353
(864)762-6008
To the anonymous person who posted at 11:35 a.m. a short while ago...
You don't get it at all, do you?
HOW is what this pastor and this church doing, showing devotion to Christ? HOW is this serving Christ at all?
And HOW is this being a witness for Christ to a lost and dying world?
Has this church automatically assigned Obama to Hell, without wanting to afford him the grace that the Bible tell us that God makes available for all?
Are you so blinded by politics that you don't CARE about the commandment to "love one another", even if that person *might* be of different creed or, Lord help us, a political party?
Martin Luther once said that it would be better to "be governed by a wise Turk than a foolish Christian". I'm not saying that Obama is a wise Turk... but the actions of Pastor Byrd and Jonesville Church of God are of very foolish Christians, indeed!
bonehead sign of the year, no decade!
If someone who has been attending the Church of Christ for 20 years is the enemy. What happened to "love your enemies"?
Can America afford another "water boarding" Christian?
It is amazing that so many who claim to serve the God of truth, rely so heavily on inuendo and lies to promote their cause.
The father of lies we are told is someone other than Christ.
Perhaps Pastor Byrd and his congregation should spend time reflecting on the words of Christ,"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord,Lord will enter the Kingdom ... but only he that does the will of my father ...'" Mathew 7:21,23
And again, to the "anonymous" person who posted at 11:35 a.m.:
You are only bringing up matters of Obama's past history. Not a thing about where he might be today.
Per your reckoning, the apostle Paul should NEVER have been forgiven for everything he did to the early Christians, much less become God's single greatest instrument toward reaching the Gentiles.
Chris:
Where is Obama today?
You think that someone who is a very strong advocate for partial birth abortion is a Christian? Yes, Obama beleives that we can jab a child in the head at parturition to KILL the baby.
You beleive someone who is advised by a former Muslim is a Christian?
You beleive someone who is for gay marriage is a Christian?
Read your scripture, this has nothing to do with politics or creed, eventhough you desperately want it to be. Did Paul beleive upon the same things that Saul did? Absolutley not...their was a change in him, a direct result of his relationship building expereince on the road to Damascus with Jesus the Christ.
Tell me what change has been instilled upon Obama as a result of the Holy Spirit?
This church has NOT assigned Obama to hell, as you ask. Even the thief on the cross saw paradise. How have their words placed him in hell?
They have simply posed a question, one that begs to be answered given Obama's past religous, family and educational background. This experience has shaped the man and there is little to no evidence of his life changing salvation.
[Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
"You think that someone who is a very strong advocate for partial birth abortion is a Christian? Yes, Obama beleives that we can jab a child in the head at parturition to KILL the baby."
And George W. Bush was for abortion at one time too, before he started getting into politics.
"You beleive someone who is advised by a former Muslim is a Christian?"
Want me to post that picture of Bush kissing the king of Saudi Arabia and holding his hand? Why should a man who is "advised by a former Muslim" be more frightening than a man who is already President, who obeys Muslims already?
"You beleive someone who is for gay marriage is a Christian?"
The Republican party isn't against gay marriage to begin with. The GOP leadership just likes to scare its party faithful with that old bugaboo so that they'll keep voting Republican. Otherwise, they really don't care at all about "gay marriage".
"Tell me what change has been instilled upon Obama as a result of the Holy Spirit?"
Why don't you tell me what change has been instilled upon George W. Bush as a result of the Holy Spirit.
See? This could go on forever. Because you refuse to apply the same standards to "your guys".
"They have simply posed a question, one that begs to be answered given Obama's past religous, family and educational background."
That might be the most ignorant, most STUPID comment that I've ever seen posted on this blog.
WHAT QUESTION, pray tell, has been "posed" here? All I see is one very foolish pastor who has plumbed the depths and found that... horrors!... Obama's name rhymes with Osama's.
It's this kind of desperation and raw vile toward others that make the rest of us as followers of Christ look very foolish, too.
WHY is this pastor and this church even obsessing on Obama, anyway? Why are too many Christians doing that, also?
Because truth be known, it doesn't matter one way or another to me whether Obama is elected President. I know who I've supported for the position, and I'm going to continue to support him regardless of what the world - including you - expect of me. But I know enough as a follower of Christ to know that this world will not be saved by politics.
By the way, how's the weather in Norcross, Georgia this afternoon?
And George W. Bush was for abortion at one time too, before he started getting into politics.
George W. Bush made a teen age girl pregnant and paid for her abortion. Every one here knows it but won't talk about it.
This pastor looks like a country-fried fool. Whomever would consider that Osama bin Laden and Baracak Obama are like, are dipped and fried in the same foolish crap. Its makes no sense whatsoever, there is no comparison.
Do these pretend-a-Christians think their Jesus would have voted for the greedy-tortuous-war monger in office now?
Funny, I didnt know we were talking about president Bush, I thought we were talking about the sign, asking if Obama was a muslim.
PS. I seriously dont live in Norcross, nor Georgia, though I used to live in Ga. about 10 years ago...sorry.... I also lived in North carolina for a few years.
WHY is this pastor and this church even obsessing on Obama, anyway? Why are too many Christians doing that, also?
Why do you have to make false premises...the church I attend has a sigh out right now advertising a thrift sale...it doesnt mean we are obsessing over it.
You use false premises, red herrings and diversions to avoid the question at hand...what external or internal characteristics does your candidate exhibit, that convinses you he is a Christian and not a muslim?
Pretty simple question.
Anonymous: Chris is pointing out that George W. Bush has been more cozy with Muslims than we know Obama has in his adult life. Why haven't Christians like this preacher and you been bothered by that already?
anonymous @ 1:13,
Do you really think you are going to reach someone for Christ with all of that hate?
BTW Chris,
I used to be on staff at a church in Norcross (Peachtree Corners)
Again, I though we were talking about the possiblilty of Obama being a muslim...not talking about Bush's coziness.
BDS at its best here.
Lets stay on topic please.
Obama readily admits being educated in a Muslim school and his registration clearly states his religion as Islam at another school later in life. He was born into a Muslim family, his living grandmother still practices Islam, and everyone knows you are BORN into Islam and that you may never leave, per Sharia law.
Questioning Obama's faith is not hate, especially given his past history of being educated and raised by Muslims.
Our God is a jealous God. Exodus 20:4
The answers still elude you?
What characteristics does Obama exude that identify him as a Christian?
anonymous,
It is attitudes like yours that turn people off to Jesus.
Anonymous: what characteristics does Bush exude that identify him as a Christian? Chris has asked why didn't this church and most other Christians ask that?
OOOO you got me there.
Hey Chris, why are you deleting my good stuff?
Liberalism is an attack on God...
abortion attacks Gods creation (in his own image)
Homosexuality attacks the family, Gods creation for procreation and to pass down the TRUTH
Evolution attacks creationism
ETC ETC ETC....
hey and guess what, Obama is the MOST liberal senator in DC.
So, is he a Christian.
anonymous,
I'm not going to vote for Obama, but how do you know he is not a believer? Also, it think it is tragic to compare him to Osama.
Kevin:
A good question. I have posted several examples of why I do not beleive Obama is a Christian: ie: his very strong support of partial birth abortion, his liberal views (the most liberal in congress) on homosexuality, evolution, etc.
I hope I have been thorough in my explanation that once you are a saved, there is an outward and interanl transformation.
I do not see any signs of that in Obama. While only our Father knows of his salvation status, if you will, there should be some signs of salvation. I simply can not beleive someone who is willing to actively support killing a child after the baby has partially been exposed from the womb, believes in the sanctity of life.
I do understand you opinion on the comparison to to Osama....I took it to mean that he was a Muslim brother, not a terrorist...after all, the Bin Laden family, including his blood brothers are not terrorists...but I can appreciate how it would be perceived otherwise.
Sounds very judgmental to me.
First thing's first. "Anonymous", I haven't deleted any comments that have been made to this post. It takes a LOT for me to reach for the "delete" button here.
Here is where you messed up, and I can no longer take you seriously at all...
"Liberalism is an attack on God..."
If you read this blog at all, and my longtime readers will vouch for this, then you know that *here*, in this spot of the Internet at least, there is no such thing as "liberalism" or "conservatism".
There are liberal and conservative QUALITIES to issues. But to call someone "liberal" or "conservative"? That doesn't exist here. You've got to be better than that.
In short: by using "liberalism" you screwed up Jack.
You keep harping on Obama's past. Okay well...
My own past includes being a hardened atheist, being pro-abortion, and *gasp* even a registered Democrat.
I've since been a follower of Christ since 1996, wrote pro-LIFE editorials for my college newspaper that spawned numerous death threats against me, and am now for all intents and purposes unaffiliated.
But per the standards you are setting, none of this counts because I was an atheist, pro-abortion type and can't change from that.
Thank the Lord that His grace doesn't conform to man's standards!
Kevin:
It is not judgemental to ask where the evidence of salvation lies in someone.
Furthermore, I dont believe Obama to be a brother, inwhich case, if he were I would refute him with His Word.
Yes it is. Jesus didn't condemn the woman caught in adultery. He told her to go and sin no more. Christians like you make it hard for us to reach unbelievers. Why would they want to go to church where they are already looked down upon?
An i am telling Obama to sin no more...stop his support of things like partial birth abortion.
Chris
Maybe youre not hitting the delete button....if thats the case you may have issues with your site.
What I had written, was that you keep saying I am talking of the past Obama.
I am talking about present day Obama, who strongly supports killing a child a birth.
This is NOW.
Just like you experienced a change, and showed signs of this change in 1996, shouldnt Obama?
Where is his evidence of salvation?
"Where is his evidence of salvation?"
A good question.
Here's an even better one...
Where is YOUR OWN evidence of salvation?
Again with the diversion. Chris?
My name isnt on the sign.
But quid pro quo:
I am a Gaurdian ad Litem, advocating for abused and neglected children.
I work with two ministries who assist drug addicted men
I work with one pregnancy center, which my last event gained just over $10,000 to support unborn children and their mothers.
And I work with one ministry geared towrds homelessness, addiction and continueing education.
I do not like to talk about these things personally, but....now that Ive answered....your turn
What evidence, such as demonstrated by yourself, in 1996, has Obama presented of salvation, since he currently maintains his status on items like partial birth abortion?
Kevin:
The topic at hand is Obama and this sign; not me. If it were about me... the sign would have my name on it....and all the charities I mwork with will more than testify that I dont like my name broadcast....those crowns are between my father and I. I only write about them here, becasue Chris asked.
Does Obama glorify God by advocating for partial birth abortion?
"I am a Gaurdian ad Litem, advocating for abused and neglected children. I work with two ministries who assist drug addicted men. I work with one pregnancy center, which my last event gained just over $10,000 to support unborn children and their mothers. And I work with one ministry geared towrds homelessness, addiction and continueing education."
Nice. Very nice.
But we still have no idea based on this if you are saved by the grace of God.
Everything that you just gave us is mere "works".
How does any amount of this secure anyone a place in Heaven?
This is about your attitude. Jesus talked about that a lot. Look, I know where you are coming from, I was just like you. Then I truly found freedom in the Grace of God. It is not our job to judge, it is Gods. These kind of attitudes will never bring people to Christ.
faith without works, Chris.
Thats what we are talking about...the evidence of salvation as exhibited by works....thats the whole topic...,my salvation is only obtained through Christs, death, burial and ressurection. BUt the evidence of one's faith is in two things: the love of the brother, which I beleive Obama is not (and you have yet to offer anything to dispute that) and through ones works, which I will lay down at His feet.
Now please Chris...I offered my answers.....answer mine as to evidence of salvation within Obama.
PS...There are GAL'S in North Carolina, Ive had a few conference calls with them....its heartbreaking but one of the most rewarding and anonymous charitable act I have been a part of, you should consider it.
Again Kevin...it is not judgemental for me to ask if Obama is a muslim....nor is it judgemental for me to accuse him of being a sinner.....I am a sinner...we all fall short.
Youre relying again on false premises...that I am being judgemental. I am not. By his own admission, Obama was taught in muslim schools. He continues to support aborant acts such as infanticide. There has been no evidence of salvation from him, and you can not give me anything to support that he is saved.
Thanks to Grace, we can be forgiven, but you have to accept Jesus to acquire that Grace...once you accept His Grace, there is an outward change, described well by Chris when he accepted Christ in 1996. I am asking where this change is with Obama.
If all you can do to defend your position is hurl attacks at me, then you really have nothing to stand on.
Anonymous,
Listen to what Kevin is saying. He knows what he's talking about. And I'll even say that he's got a grasp of the concept of grace that I'm still struggling with, that I've already long wanted God to help me understand and appreciate.
And so far as Obama goes: NONE OF THIS has been, or ever should have been about, Obama at all. If he were never running for President, would any of this have even mattered at all?
But because he is running for so high an office, it's as if only now are we supposed to be concerned about whether or not he is a Christian.
We will do no one any favors by harping on him. But we do the body of Christ and those still outside of it a HUGE disfavor by showing this kind of revulsion at someone, whether or not he is part of the body of Christ.
If and when Obama does something in the name of Christ that demands he be held accountable for that by his fellows in the Lord, THEN yes, I believe we should do that. Just as some of us have pointed out for years that Bush has not been Christ-like in his actions as President at all. But if and when we do that with Obama, it CAN NOT be in the fashion of the Jonesville Church of God. This church has done nothing other than take a very cheap and petty shot at someone, without being able to point to anything legitimately troubling about Obama.
Now, what DOES that say about followers of Christ? If you were outside of the church, would this really impress you with the notion that followers of Christ were any different, any less condescending, than the rest of the world?
How does this convince others of Christ at all?
Well gentlemen, I really have to get some stuff done....I thank you for your time and will check back regularly in hopes of finding the answers to my question:
If Obama is a Christian, what works have we seen from him to conclude he is a Christian? If there are none, what religion (I hate that word) does he bow down to?
You still don't understand, anonymous. I don't know if you really WANT to understand.
But I'll try to ask again, in another way...
If Christians are this judgmental toward one person, what is there to lead someone who does not have faith in Christ that he or she will escape from being likewise judged, also?
How is what this church is doing, able to convince anyone of Christ's love and grace?
Because I can't see that it does.
And in the scheme of things, that's a much more important issue than whether or not someone is elected President.
I dont think I will listen to Kevin...I will listen to His spirit and read His word....you do the same.
If this was never about Obama..why did you post it....why do you mention his name in your opening remarks?
I mean his name IS on the sign, isnt it...how can it not be about him. Contrarily, Bush isnt mentioned on the sign and you bring his name into it.....wow.
While we are not of this world, we are still do strap on our armor everyday and fight the good fight...exactly against causes like abortion (OBAMA).
I encourage you both to do your research on the apostate church....its "feel-good" relativism, etc. AND PRAY
Oh, thanks for never being able to defends Obama's Christian status...your void has proven my point all along.
Chris...get off the Kevin soapbox...questioning ones faith , or lack there of, is not judgemental....because you can not show me any evidence of Obama's faith you do the next best thing...attack me.
Gotta go....you guys keep running around in circles, avoiding the question.
anonymous,
Study Luke 15:25ff. Condemning Obama will never bring him to Christ. Although he may be a believer. We won't know until we get to heaven.
You haven't been proven on anything "anonymous" other than that you're hellbent on demonstrating the unrighteousness of another and the righteousness of yourself.
Remember Luke 18:9-14.
I do not want to fellowship with any church that slanders anyone, in the name of Jesus. The church and pastor need to repent.
I'm not voting for Barack Obama too but maybe his running is a good thing. The false Christians are showing themselves apart from the real ones because of him. Jonesville Church of God is a church of false Christians for doing this.
On thing that some people fail to realize and something I really hate. Just because a person calls themselves a Christian does not make them a saint. Christianity is a belief not a way of life. Giving yourself to the Lord and being saved is what matters.
A person can go to the club Friday and Saturday Night, then be at church early Sunday morning. They may be a Christian but they are not a saved person living by God’s Word. Obama can be a Christian but that does not mean his soul is ready for heaven. But what that pastor is doing is not of God Word either, that’s the whole point!
The last I looked, bearing false witness is a sin. He phrases it as a question, "to get people to think," but it is still a lie. The penalty for bearing false witness is death.
That means this "church" is being pastored by an unrepentant capital criminal by its own standards.
The last I looked, bearing false witness is a sin. He phrases it as a question, "to get people to think," but it is still a lie. The penalty for bearing false witness is death.
Well Said anonymous posting at 5:05 PM
Let me understand you anonymous at 5:05.
Youre saying that bearing false witness= sin= for which the penalty is death.
Death, in Christian terms, is the seperation from God. There is only one unpardonable sin, to reject christ as your saviour.
If the wages of any and all sin is death, we would all be dead in earthly terms, which we are, until saved by Grace.
Jimmy, how can one be a Christian and not be saved? Maybe you meant to say they could be religous, going to church, etc, but not have accepted Gods Grace?
Like I said too many people confuse the confuse the term Christian. How many people do you know who are Catholic yet not living right, how many people you know are Jewish yet don't always practice Jewish faith, how many people you know are Islamic yet don't always practice the Islamic Faith. Each of these are just names describing a faith/belief.
Believing something is one thing but doing it is another. Some people believe smoking is unhealthy but they do it anyway.
Chris and Kevin:
I would strongly enourage you both to minimize or eliminate if possible, your judgement upon your bretheren. The original post, written by you Chris, declaring the church's sign as being Un-Christ like is a direct judgement and codemnation of the brother.
cross referenced with Kevins website.
"You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written: "`As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'" 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. Romans 14(NIV)
Chris you have judged your brothers, who simply asked a question on their church sign. IS Obama a muslim? If asking a question in regards to one's faith is equivalent to being judgemental, then how are we to go about witnessing? I mean, dont you ask where a person stands on faith, prior to witnessing, i.e.: have you heard the Good News, do you beleive in God, are you an aetheist, are you a muslim, etc.?
It is impossible for a question to be a judgement or codemnation without placing a premise within the question. An example here would be: "How many times does Obama face and pray towards mecca in a day?" This provides the premise that he is a muslim. The sign does not imply anything, it simply asks.
Kevin, your assertions of "the boneheaded sign of the year" have done nothing to lift up your brothers.
Instead of edifying, uniting and emboldening your brother, even if this were a weak momnet for them, you have chosen to ridicule them and cast allegations at them you dont know to be truthful (ie: Chris's comment on it was to bad they never prayed about it.)
"But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to them that are weak. "10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1 Corinthians 8 (King James Version)
Chris and Kevin, your are sinning upon your brothers in Christ over non-essential items. Believe it or not, differences within the church are okay, however, your judgement of the brother and your condemnation for them asking a question on a sign are NOT okay:
"No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval." 1 Corinthians 11:19(NIV)
Bret,
Fair enough. I changed my title accordingly.
anonymous 2 posts up you are being a hypocrite. you complain about chris and kevin showing everyone how this church is wrong but you and this church can't hide how much you want to do the same to obama.
Again Jay, the difference and the question at hand is if asking a question on a sign is judgemental. I think by the nature of this question, it can not be a judgement or condemnation...it simply asks a question.
on the other hand,
From a biblical stance, what Chris has done in labeling this Un Christlike is a judgement of the brother...clearly scripture takes offense to judgment of the brother ( i can provide more scripture if you would like, but some of what i detailed above shloud suffice).
I am trying to edify my brothers in Christ by pointing out the difference between their jusgement and the church's asking a legitimate question. Iron stengthens iron.
As far as Obama, I clearly have a question to his faith, since he has been educated in muslim schools, by his own admittance, and since there is no apparent sign of his salvation, ie: his support of partial birth abortion....I simply can not accept one who is willing to support infanticide is a Christian....the sanctity of life is well documnented in His word and in Christs actions on earth.
If I appear a hyprocrite I apologize...if I AM a hyprocrite...i apologize twice.
One last try:
Chris I implore you to change the title of this posting.
If the scripture I have laid down isn't enough for you, then look at some of the comments from your posters:
Jennifer says that Obama's running is a good thing becasue it is expoing all the false Christians in the Jonesville church.
Antoine calls the church slanderers...how can you slander anyone with a question?
BWB calls the church pretend-a-Christians.
Chris, your posting has done nothing to edify, unite, or even correct your brothers in Christ.
In fact, the world (I assume you know what I mean by "the world", if not replace it with "secular") could not to a better job a tearing down the church than you are doing. I say that, becasue you are a within the ranks, a member of the church, versus a secularist. You offer a legitimacy that the secularist can not.
Call the sign undesirable, call it crazy, call it controversial...please dont call in Un Christ like.
For the sake of the church, your brothers and yourself.
Rememeber that “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight.” (2 Timothy 3:16)
Dont cast judgement on this church, edify and strengthen them. Please dont hand the secularists some gasoline to throw into the fire that they would have sonsume us.
And finally:
"Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. 8Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable -- if anything is excellent or praiseworthy -- think about such things. 9Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me -- put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you. Phil 4(NIV)
I reallly realllly would love if you would medidate on these words.
This is just another case of "just don't get it!" The sign has NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE or POLITICS. It has everything to do with RELIGION. The church is trying to get people in America to get their heads out of the sand and recognize a religious problem. I thought that was what churches were supposed to deal with.
Radical Islamists have declared war on America and the rest of the "Infidels" in the western part of this world. They have very plainly stated their intention is to kill us. They teach it in their schools where Obama attended. Obama refuses to renown Farrakan and Wright who espouse the same hatred of America. Obama's uncle is an active member of a Islamic tribe in Africa.
Doesn't any of these facts make you stop and think mmmmmm. That is all that the good pastor of the church was trying to get you to do. Sure it was risky and drastic, but it got your attention. Now that you have been made aware of the problem, what are you going to do about it. Remember Nero, he fiddled while Rome burned. WAKE UP AMERICA BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually, I don't see the problem as being Islam's at all. That's just "passing the buck".
The PROBLEM is with those who PROFESS TO FOLLOW CHRIST! And the fact that many of us are so paranoid about "the Muslims" proves it. Islam could never destroy America. But Christians who cease in seeking after Christ first, they WILL bring this country to stagnation and ruin.
Don't believe me? How many Christians have supported the Republican party without waver or question? Now look at what the Republican (and the Democrats also I should add) have done to this country... and yet VERY many Christians are under a STRONG delusion that they must act to enable and promote the Republicans, as if this party were God's anointed change agent for America.
How many Christians ever stopped to think about how positively BLASPHEMOUS this is?
No, it's not the Muslims that I'm worried about. It's too many of my fellow Christians. And this pastor of the Jonesville Church of God, all he's trying to do is distract Christians - and probably himself - from their and his own shortcomings. The weaknesses which they don't seem willing to bring to God.
What is wrong with Pastor Byrd's sign?
Nothing if you are a Republican. It's good politics, if rather grubby.
Why?
Not only does it ask a question, but it implies an answer.
It links the name of a United States senator with that of Osama Bin Laden, a man who was the driving force behind the worst terrorist attack on this country.
The implied messages is that Obama is a brother terrorist. The aim is not to ask a legitimate question, but to undermine a man's character by word association.
It is the politics of fear at its best!!! Well done Pastor Byrd!
Is this unchristian? Probably not. It seems to be typical of many christians.
The real question, would Christ himself employ these tactics? Probably not!
Inuendo and lies were foreign to his nature. Love rather than hate permeated his character.
Besides he made it clear that his kingdom was not of this world.
Now when we consider the idea of Obama as the fulfillment of Kings’ dream we should refer to the great one himself. In his now popular, “I have a dream,” speech delivered from the steps of the Lincoln Memorial at the 1963 March on Washington, King elucidated his vision of things to come.
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Jenila
South Carolina Drug Addiction
Religious liberty is a Christian doctrine. Hence, the state can be free to uphold that liberty only by remaining strictly Christian. There is no room for pluralism in the authority of the state. We are one nation under God.
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Linc
South Carolina Alcohol Addiction Treatments
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